« Tonight's show-- Hour one | Main | hour three post »
April 19, 2004
hour 2 monday
Lynn Landes Journalist- E voting
Markos Moulitsas of the blog dailykos.com
sorry about the audio screw ups and our subsequent attitudanal reaction.
links for caldicott on post show post
Posted by majority at April 19, 2004 09:06 PM
Comments
second?
Posted by: b at April 19, 2004 09:06 PM
Frist!!
Posted by: Rico at April 19, 2004 09:06 PM
first!
Posted by: Scot at April 19, 2004 09:06 PM
turd
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
Now that's funny!
Posted by: Lucky Maria at April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
no first..
Posted by: cj at April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
Doh!
Posted by: Rico at April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
Concerning the more mindless and anti-intellectual sector of the population....
Some people have become so fixated on the literal, angry-god interpretation of the Bible - and augmented it with an Armageddon fixation - that they see the government as a direct extension of the hierarchy of the Heavenly Kindom. For these individuals any questioning of "authority" is considered a blasphemous act.
On another level, they see the kind of skepticism represented by the intellectual mind as an affront to "faith." They don't understand the importance of using all our given gifts, and that skepticism is an essential aspect of faith. Without it we become mindless sheep falling in line behind power. In the USA We The People are supposed to be the ultimate arbiters of policy. That's because the founders had faith in the critical mind founded in cause-and-effect reality - not in some kind of religious ideal.
Every totalitarian regime in history has demonized the "intellectual class" in furtherance of its grab for power. Ignorance of history and fear of "the other" is what these power-hungry people rely on to maintain their power. They also count on a kind of post-modern malaise about "truth" among more "wishy-washy" intellectuals, and that we will seek to engage them and find common ground. They count on us believing that they will reciprocate, while they scheme in the background.
George Bush's invocation of God is cynical and insincere. It's his way of abdicating responsibility for his choices. He is counting on people to believe he's on an unquestionable spiritual mission from the Heavenly Father Figure Himself.
Don't fall for it, and don't be intimidated. Don't get drawn into the argument on this level. Stick to cause and effect, pragmatism, arguing on facts and the basis of what really works, think holisitcally and speak plainly and we'll all go much further.
Posted by: Scott Lahteine at April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
Or third. Whatever.
Posted by: Scot at April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
wow /. fp wankers
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
What a great show! I can't believe it--Howard Zinn, Helen Caldicott. Is Chomsky next?
Posted by: KBH at April 19, 2004 09:07 PM
Naked Majority Report Blogging >>> Warm Night in NYC.
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:08 PM
Republican Sexual repression results in bad things.
Posted by: DickMorrisToeSuck at April 19, 2004 09:08 PM
Any Tom Lehrer fans out there?
"In German and English I know how to count down...and I'm learning Chinese" says Werner Von Braun
Posted by: Lucky Maria at April 19, 2004 09:08 PM
Please for the love of Dog, tell me the name of that tango-sounding music that plays between some segments.
Also, how'd the NYC moveon bake sale go? The houston one I was at did almost $1200!
Posted by: Tippi at April 19, 2004 09:09 PM
tape CNN! Bob Woodward on Larry King.
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:09 PM
Join an Air America message board:
http://b17.ezboard.com/bairamericaradio50090
Its set up so its really easy to read and post comments.
Posted by: AXel at April 19, 2004 09:09 PM
yay intellectualism
Posted by: susan at April 19, 2004 09:09 PM
But the link seems down
--
Hmm--it worked for me...
Note to our supporters: the April 15 broadcast of Good Morning America with Dr. Helen Caldicott has been postponed. More details will be posted when it is rescheduled.
Download audio from the April 14, 2004 Nuclear Breakfast
Depleted Uranium Munitions in Iraq
--
Earth Day at Wagner College
At a time when critics increasingly accuse the current architects of U.S. foreign policy of a Cold War mentality, anti-nuclear advocate Dr. Helen Caldicott points out the Cold War threat not being addressed by the United States government: Russia and America still target each other with 2,500 hydrogen bombs on hair-trigger alert. This and other nuclear dangers will be the focus of her presentation at Wagner College. The Earth Day event, "Three Minutes to Midnight: Helen Caldicott on The New Nuclear Danger," will be staged at Spiro Hall 2, Wagner College, 631 Howard Ave., on Thursday, April 22, at 7 p.m., it was announced by the Staten Island Chapter of Peace Action. It is co-sponsored by the American Chemical Society, the ACE program of Wagner College and the Staten Island Democratic Association
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:09 PM
BuckFush - LOL, ok, I admit it. I'm not wearing pants. Anyone else dealing with the heat wave in a creative fashion? ...or lack of fashion?
Posted by: Lucky Maria at April 19, 2004 09:10 PM
I have a friend who sees a conspiracy everywhere (including High Grant's arrest w/Divine Brown) yet had never heard of Operation Paperclip. Not that I took much of his opinions seriously before then, but that's when he seriously lost all credibility, as that's the best known, most well-documented gov't conspiracy that actually, definitely happened last century.
Posted by: Virginia at April 19, 2004 09:10 PM
What is with that gallup poll on CNN that has Bush AHEAD of Keryy!!!????
I grow discouraged :{
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:10 PM
Bush hates intellectuals.
Bush hates science.
If he gets colon-rectal cancer do you think he'll go to church for a cure??
Posted by: cj at April 19, 2004 09:10 PM
You don't have to read any classified documents to find out that Doctor Werner Von Braun helped NASA launch a man into space, just watch the movie October Sky. Homer Hickum is said to write letters to Doctor Werner Von Braun to get advice an inspiration. AWWWWW, isn't that cute?
Posted by: Jeff at April 19, 2004 09:10 PM
Please have Michael Parenti as a guest. He is amazing.
He knows all about the corrupt rightwing media machine.
www.michaelparenti.org
Posted by: Michael Parenti is god at April 19, 2004 09:11 PM
Paper trails!!!
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 09:11 PM
Good on to E-Voting. The topic I wanted to hear about tonight.
Posted by: Leftistindependent at April 19, 2004 09:11 PM
If Bush gets Colon Cancer...at least we'll know he's not a perfect A$$ hole.
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:11 PM
Proud to be an over-educated intellectual!
Posted by: Virginia at April 19, 2004 09:11 PM
The music is Los Lobos. I think it's 'The Neighborhood'. Confirmation, anybody?
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:11 PM
E-voting is a joke. Betcha they'll get Katheryn Harris to head the project.
Posted by: PatLovesJaneane at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM
From the Columbus Free Press
The Governor of Ohio, Bob Taft, and other prominent state officials, commute to their downtown Columbus offices on Broad Street. This is the so-called “Golden Finger,” the safe route through the majority black inner-city near east side. The Broad Street BP station, just east of downtown, is the place where affluent suburbanites from Bexley can stop, gas up, get their coffee and New York Times. Those in need of cash visit BP’s Diebold manufactured CashSource+ ATM machine which provides a paper receipt of the transaction to all customers upon request.
Many of Taft’s and President George W. Bush’s major donors, like Diebold’s current CEO Walden “Wally” O’Dell, reside in Columbus’ northwest suburb Upper Arlington. O’Dell is on record stating that he is “committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President” this year. On September 26, 2003, he hosted an Ohio Republican Party fundraiser for Bush’s re-election at his Cotswold Manor mansion. Tickets to the fundraiser cost $1000 per couple, but O’Dell’s fundraising letter urged those attending to “Donate or raise $10,000 for the Ohio Republican Party.”
According to the Columbus Dispatch: “Last year, O’Dell and his wife Patricia, campaigned for passage of two liquor options that made their portion of Tremont Road wet.
On November 5, Upper Arlington residents narrowly passed measures that allowed fundraising parties to offer more than beer, even though his 10,800-square-foot home is a residence, a permit is required because alcohol is included in the price of fundraising tickets. O’Dell is also allowed to serve “beer, wine and mixed drinks” at Sunday fundraisers.
O’Dell’s fund-raising letter followed on the heels of a visit to President Bush’s Crawford Texas ranch by “Pioneers and Rangers,” the designation for people who had raised $100,000 or more for Bush’s re-election.
If Ohio’s Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell has his way, Diebold will receive a contract to supply touch screen electronic voting machines for much of the state. None of these Diebold machines will provide a paper receipt of the vote.
Diebold, located in North Canton, Ohio, does its primary business in ATM and ticket-vending machines. Critics of Diebold point out that virtually every other machine the company makes provides a paper trail to verify the machine’s calculations. Oddly, only the voting machines lack this essential function.
State Senator Teresa Fedor of Toledo introduced Senate Bill 167 late last year mandating that every voting machine in Ohio generate a “voter verified paper audit trail.” Secretary of State Blackwell has denounced any attempt to require a paper trail as an effort to “derail” election reform. Blackwell’s political career is an interesting one: he emerged as a black activist in Cincinnati supporting municipal charter reform, became an elected Democrat, then an Independent, and now is a prominent Republican with his eyes on the Governor’s mansion.
(click my name for the rest)
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM
Big Tom Lehrer fan here in Seattle!
Posted by: cathy in seattle at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM
J&S: Ask about the hackers testing the voting machines from Diebold in Maryland(?) - about how EASILY they were hacked!!!
What would happen if all, or even most, people filed for an absentee ballot (they're all paper, baby!)?
Posted by: Liberal-at-large at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM
Electronic votes are UNAMBIGUOUS!
No hanging, pregnant, or dimpled chads.
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM
Sign at the Verify the Vote Rally in Cols this past Saturday:
War on
Error!
Posted by: cj at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM
Lucky Maria > Seems my thoughts are more (organized) in this condition, on this warm night.
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM
Somebody had another poll in the 1st hour thread where Kerry is ahead.
Posted by: don'tpanicyet at April 19, 2004 09:12 PM
met the freaks at def con black-hats threatened one of the major casinos that if they didn't leave them be while they were there they would shut them down daily for the next year these machines are easier to hack than Outlook
Posted by: azliberal at April 19, 2004 09:13 PM
That Lucky Maria is wild
Posted by: ........X Conner Lingus X........ at April 19, 2004 09:13 PM
- What are the Major brand of e-voting machine currently in used out here?
-what are the weakneses?
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:13 PM
Did anyone read this "NORAD had drills of jets as weapons" and the White house said airplanes as weapons was unimaginable.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20040419/ts_usatoday/noradhaddrillsofjetsasweapons
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:13 PM
vote early and vote often! I mean, no!
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:13 PM
cj--was that you with the sign?
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:13 PM
Katheryn Harris got RNC support and made it to congress.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
Hey anonymous poster:
Haven't you seen the news today? GWB already has "Colin" Cancer, AND IT'S TERMINAL!!! :) :)
Posted by: jeff at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
Isn't the guy in charge of Diebold a Bush supporter?
Posted by: Leftistindependent at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
No, I didn't have the sign but I took alot of pictures. You want some??
Posted by: cj at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
Sure e-voting is dangerously hackable but is the answer really to go back to paper write-ins?!
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
everybody was talking about getting rid of the electoral system back in 2000...where did that debate go???
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
Lucky Maria, I posted another verse of that Tom Lehrer song in the first hour blog (not realizing that the second hour was up).
I'm in Oregon, I like voting by mail due to my incredibly lazy nature.
Posted by: Ann W at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
Speakin' of von Braun, I ran into an old Mort Sahl quote from a long time ago: regarding Wernher's book, titled something like 'I aim for the sky', he said "Yeah, but sometimes he hits London".
Posted by: Chris O. at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
Speaking of anti-intellectualism and repressed sexiality, www.anxietyculture.com is a nice place to read about all that!
G.W. Burns is Frank Burns. :)
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:14 PM
more...
Increasingly, investigative writers seeking an explanation have looked to Diebold’s history for clues. The electronic voting industry is dominated by only a few corporations – Diebold, Election Systems & Software (ES&S) and Sequoia. Diebold and ES&S combined count an estimated 80% of U.S. black box electronic votes.
In the early 1980s, brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich founded ES&S’s originator, Data Mark. The brothers Urosevich obtained financing from the far-Right Ahmanson family in 1984, which purchased a 68% ownership stake, according to the Omaha World Herald. After brothers William and Robert Ahmanson infused Data Mark with new capital, the name was changed to American Information Systems (AIS). California newspapers have long documented the Ahmanson family’s ties to right-wing evangelical Christian and Republican circles.
In 2001, the Los Angeles Times reported, “. . . primarily funded by evangelical Christians – particularly the wealthy Ahmanson family of Irvine – the [Discovery] institute’s $1-million annual program has produced 25 books, a stream of conferences and more than 100 fellowships for doctoral and postdoctoral research.” The chief philanthropists of the Discovery Institute, that pushes creationist science and education in California, are Howard and Roberta Ahmanson.
According to Group Watch, in the 1980s Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. was a member of the highly secretive far-Right Council for National Policy, an organization that included Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, Major General John K. Singlaub and other Iran-Contra scandal notables, as well as former Klan members like Richard Shoff. Ahmanson, heir to a savings and loan fortune, is little reported on in the mainstream U.S. press. But, English papers like The Independent are a bit more forthcoming on Ahmanson’s politics.
“On the right, figures such as Richard Mellon Scaife and Howard Ahmanson have given hundreds of millions of dollars over several decades to political projects both high (setting up the Heritage Foundation think-tank, the driving engine of the Reagan presidency) and low (bankrolling investigations into President Clinton’s sexual indiscretions and the suicide of the White House insider Vincent Foster),” wrote The Independent last November.
The Sunday Mail described an individual as, “. . . a fundamentalist Christian more in the mould of U.S. multi-millionaire Howard Ahmanson, Jr., who uses his fortune to promote so-called traditional family values . . . by waving fortunes under their noses, Ahmanson has the ability to cajole candidates into backing his right-wing Christian agenda.
Ahmanson is also a chief contributor to the Chalcedon Institute that supports the Christian reconstruction movement. The movement’s philosophy advocates, among other things, “mandating the death penalty for homosexuals and drunkards.”
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:15 PM
Send Katherine Harris your thanks for her great job in the 2000 elections. Personally I think she wears more makeup than a whore, but that is just a Florida observation.
http://electharris.org/
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:15 PM
There are effective and SECURE electronic voting systems.
Let us stop being Luddites here.
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 09:15 PM
observers?????
Posted by: azliberal at April 19, 2004 09:15 PM
Open Source the e-voting software!
This is what they did in Australia.
(And paper receipts of course.)
Posted by: Scott Lahteine at April 19, 2004 09:15 PM
We should vote like we did in grammer school. Would be better than these stupid machines
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:15 PM
I grow more and more cynical about how this years election will turn out.. This administration if full of crazed zeolots it would not be far fetched to think they are capable of rigging the election... Bush will be the first president to never be elected to office twice..
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:15 PM
Call in Jimmy Carter to monitor our elections
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:15 PM
I can't believe that J is the only one on AAR that has mentioned the Union of Concerned Scientists' report on the Bush administration's systemic abuse of science. As if litmus-testing political appointees weren't bad enough, they're doing the same for scientific panels. Because we all know that you can't have any input on subatomic physics if you're prochoice.... (Not actually one of the documented misues.)
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/rsi/index.cfm
Posted by: Virginia at April 19, 2004 09:16 PM
Been voting absentee for years. Do it, people.
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:16 PM
Yeah, it's sad that woman is in congress because of the whole 2000 deal.
Posted by: PatLovesJaneane at April 19, 2004 09:16 PM
Well Bush is certainly not going to get rid of the electoral college. It would invalidate his presidency!
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:16 PM
I'm not a conspiracy nut. What conspiracy nut could have guessed the stuff this administration has already done?
There's so much, and it just keeps coming. We're becoming numb!
What if Kerry won, and Bush and Cheney and Rove just decided to declare martial law and nullify the election? I wouldn't consider that a serious possibility with any administration up until this one. With this bunch, consider that in January, they will be required to hand over power, having been defeated. Consider what that will MEAN to them!
All of a sudden its not so screwey, huh?
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:16 PM
interesting past...
Con Job at Diebold Subsidiary
"The programmer, Jeffrey Dean, wrote and maintained proprietary code used to count hundreds of thousands of votes as senior vice president of Global Election Systems, or GES. Diebold purchased GES in January 2002.
According to a public court document released before GES hired him, Dean served time in a Washington state correctional facility for stealing money and tampering with computer files in a scheme that "involved a high degree of sophistication and planning."
http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,61640,00.html
Posted by: the_reich_wing at April 19, 2004 09:16 PM
Maybe the UN should come in to monitor the 2004 election.
Posted by: Embedded at April 19, 2004 09:16 PM
I hate to repeat myself, but COME ON PEOPLE! JOIN THE Air America Message forum already!!!
http://b17.ezboard.com/bairamericaradio50090
Posted by: AXel at April 19, 2004 09:16 PM
"We should vote like we did in grammer school. Would be better than these stupid machines"
That's what I think. Drop them into a wooden box with a slot on top, like they used for the Valentines.
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:17 PM
I think Sam is right. If electronic voting machines printed out a record that you could verify before you left the booth, at least there would be a hard-copy of the votes that could be hand-counted.
I voted early here, and it was on a touch-screen machine with no paper trail. I have NO freakin' idea how my vote was actually recorded.
Posted by: airhead at April 19, 2004 09:17 PM
Morality is a lie.
Posted by: BillBennettGamble at April 19, 2004 09:17 PM
Electoral College is not going anywhere. No amount of shouting will change that. It is way too complicated to get into here though.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:17 PM
My two Senators and Congressmember are unresponsive to my nagging.
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 09:17 PM
Why are they making this sound so hard? Why not a touch screen that printed out two receipts. One goes in the ballot box, one you get to keep. The electronic results can be posted immediately and later verified with a count of the paper trail ballots.
Why is this so @!#!$@#$^ hard to understand??!?!
Posted by: cj at April 19, 2004 09:17 PM
$3 Billion bucks???
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:17 PM
I like the grammer school school idea though.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:17 PM
we've managed to create secure systems to deal with MONEY, why should voting be different?
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
No matter what method of voting you use, it can be fixed... as in manipulated... can we get these electronic machines to be more "secure"? sure. Paper is garbage. You try counting that stuff. Look at Florida and tell me you want to go back to voting like that... Paper and pencil... I have NEVER voted that way. We used to have levers in my county, then we went to these really nice electronic machines. There has never been a dispute. That whole statement about Diebold delivering the election to Bush IS scary, but let's not go over the deepend folks. Talk to all the Democrats that work at the polls EVERY ELECTION in counties across the country with electronic machines. I agree there is a potential weakness in the system, but guys, let's be rational and fix it and not go off the deepend and sound like some kind of paranoid republican.
Posted by: Betsy at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
Yeah, but if we go to a chat room, this blog doesn't effect the show and J & S and guests don't get to answer any of our comments or questions.
Stay here and be counted.
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
Reminder: Call Rush Holt from NJ. He is sponsoring bill to require paper trail
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
These machines have been proven to be tamper prone... I remember reading that it only took five minutes to rewrite the programs script
Posted by: Abe at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
Hell, I get two reciepts from TGI Friday's...not the poll booth?
Posted by: LG at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
Fishgrease -- I fear they'd do it a different way: They'd play agent provocateur to a bunch of militia nutballs who would assassinate Kerry, the VP, and Democratic senators from states with Repug governors...
Posted by: Chris O. at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
>>> Scott Lahteine
Links, please, on open source Australian e-voting.
Posted by: Liberal-at-large at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
just so everybody knows; it's kinda hard to eat an artichoke and read a blog at the same time.
just so you're informed.
Posted by: erin at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
Fishgrease...I think you're going a little bit overboard there.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
no matter who you vote for, the government wins
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:18 PM
MSNBC, this afternoon, showed Powell confirming he was in the loop and was also aware that the President was showing war plans to the Saudis.
Later, they only showed part of that clip. But the complete clip DOES show Powell denying that he was out of the loop, but not denying the President's security breech. A non-denial denial! This is big!
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:19 PM
Killing people and stealing their oil is not nice.
Posted by: NeilBushHooker at April 19, 2004 09:19 PM
~~~ This administration if full of crazed zeolots it would not be far fetched to think they are capable of rigging the election. ~~~
All I'm saying is.... if they fail to rig the election, after trying, is to much of a stretch to imagine a government takeover?
It might be worth it for a few days just to hear Hannity and Rush defend it!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:19 PM
I would like to see Instant Run off voting. But the only problem with IRV is that it is done electronically.So it may face the same troubles electronic voting has now.
Posted by: Leftistindependent at April 19, 2004 09:19 PM
Our Secretary of State, who is pushing for the Diebold machines, *hard*, is planning to run for governor of Ohio.
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:20 PM
Heavens to Betsy, Betsy. Electronic machine have already been proven to screw up in live elections already.
Posted by: cj at April 19, 2004 09:20 PM
erin
try one leaf at a time! :)
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:20 PM
How do we know that the paper receipt is accuate? We are talking about computers and the type of hacking they are talking about is very complex and not internet hacking like most think. To print out a receipt of which buttons you hit and not the info that was entered is easy.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:20 PM
What does "The Machine is voting for you" mean? You might as well say "The Paper is voting for you." There is an honest debate here that isn't helped by technophobes. Hey Janeane and Sam! You don't have to blindly agree with everyone you talk to. Think critically, think for yourselves. When you just nod at your guests opinions, you're not only not helping, it's boring radio.
Posted by: Rob at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
re:Well Bush is certainly not going to get rid of the electoral college. It would invalidate his presidency!
An ironic aside - the senior shrub voted to abolish the electoral college when he was in congress in the 60's. I do wish they would have won that vote !!!!!!
Posted by: pam at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
Do people here seriously think such a takeover is possible in this country? The people would never stand for it.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
fishgrease - how's this? bush "captures" bin laden, but when that's not enough to boost his numbers, a terrorist attack on america forces him to postpone the election.
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
Not a Democracy? How can people know how to live in a Democracy when they are kept inside a building called school starting at age 5 until age 18 doing nothing except learning how to seek out and have contempt for weakness in others? There is no scientific theory of learning behind the notion of coerced instruction and this schooling experiment we've been engaged in since the late 1800's. Does that flip flop your stomach? We're born into this institution so we don't question it -- assuming that it must be valid. A big fat assumption that growth and learning requires this thing called "school". Thank Crom we still have enough freedom to opt out of it, which more and more people are doing (no, homeschooling isn't a xtian bandwagon -- look it up). That makes us better than a lot of other so called democracies where intense schooling is turning the adult population into alcoholics if the don't committ suicide as kids/teens (see Japan).
Bush -> Burns. Thank you.
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
Radical idea for Kerry's VP nominee: Colin Powell. That'll shake the bastards up.
As for the voting, nothing will be perfect but what Diebold has proposed is downright scary.
Posted by: Lucky Maria at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
kevr0n is talking in code, methinks...
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
yay..... check if Saudi money is in there too.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
Rush would be shitting a brick....that prick.
Posted by: ZuZu's Metals at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
Is Frank Burns the Mr. Burns from the Simpsons? Or am I confused?
Posted by: Virginia at April 19, 2004 09:21 PM
Yeeeha!!!! I'm gonna invade iran next!!!
Yeehaa!!! It's fun sendin' you poor kids to steal my oil!!!
Posted by: Awol Cowboy at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
..at least with a paper trail you can do a recount. Also there aren't any hanging chads or dimples on a thermal printed piece of paper!!
Posted by: cj at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
if there is a way out there is a way in
Posted by: azliberal at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
Jello Biafra's Green Party presidential platform:
Election Reform. State and national legislative elections should be switched to a parliamentary system with proportional representation. Campaign time should be limited to six weeks. Anyone campaigning or soliciting bribes, excuse me, contributions, beforehand will be automatically disqualified. Ballots in all elections should include the option of voting None of the Above. If NOTA gets over 50% of the vote, a new election must be held with all new candidates.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
~~~~ Fishgrease...I think you're going a little bit overboard there. ~~~~
Well, I think I probably am. I just want to see what is believable. There's times I wonder!
Again... imagine this bunch giving up power! TRY to imagine that!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
you read the tommy franks in cigar afficianado about suspending the constitution right?
Posted by: me at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
Emelius wrote:
Send Katherine Harris your thanks for her great job in the 2000 elections. Personally I think she wears more makeup than a whore, but that is just a Florida observation.
http://electharris.org/
Watch out! Don't send that b*tch anything via email. You'll get nothing but republican fund-raising email spam forever. A truley sick person gave them my email (in retaliation for me telling them to stop posting rightwing crap on my genealogy listserve list) and it took me nearly 2 years of threats before they finally took me off their friggin' spam lists. I have a personal hatred for HArris.
Posted by: cathy in seattle at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
Voting Security articles & research
http://www.ecotalk.org/
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
kevr0n just be a clown!
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:22 PM
The scary thing about e-voting is not that votes are aggregated by machines (as if people were more reliable?). It's that once the votes are aggregated, information about unique votes is lost - i.e., no recount is possible. That's what paper printouts do. E-voting, run by the government (not by private interests), with paper printouts, could be good.
I don't understand this "vote in the hands of the voters" nonsense.
Posted by: Charon at April 19, 2004 09:23 PM
We need a real leader in the Democratic party to champion for us (Pretty-Boy Kerry isn't cutting it) - Not sure who will take up for us, I guess Air-America is a start, but I feel like we've been p*ssing in the wind since Dr. Dean was scratched by the Democrats.
Posted by: airhead at April 19, 2004 09:23 PM
hahaha Rob, you're right on.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:23 PM
They manage to give a receipt and log the choices on lottery tickets. What is the big problem?
Posted by: LadyDaphny at April 19, 2004 09:23 PM
virginia,
Frank Burns is a character from M.A.S.H
Posted by: erin at April 19, 2004 09:23 PM
Brilliant! Spread the word people...I don't think us Canadians can handle another bush presidency any more than you can.
Posted by: soulfire at April 19, 2004 09:24 PM
You should have Bob Fitrakis as a guest.
Diebold's Political Machine
Political insiders suggest Ohio could become as decisive this year as Florida was four years ago. Which is why the state's plan to use paperless touch-screen voting machines has so many up in arms.
By Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman
March 5, 2004
(click my name for the article in Mother Jones)
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:24 PM
ginny
m.a.s.h. you know, "
kevr0n ferret face!"
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:24 PM
The LAST thing I want is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to control ELECTIONS... sure, liberals, let's start that right now... gee, who would Bush appoint to run this...????
Posted by: Betsy at April 19, 2004 09:24 PM
Too bad Jello Biafra isn't running for President this year. If he was running for the Green Party again, I would support him hands down.
Posted by: Leftistindependent at April 19, 2004 09:24 PM
first?
Posted by: Josh at April 19, 2004 09:24 PM
I think Bush eventually wants to move to a prayer vote. We all kneel and pray for who we want to be elected, God compiles the votes and tells Bush who won.
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:24 PM
todays show is boring we need more ross brockley!!
Posted by: katey at April 19, 2004 09:24 PM
The first Americans didn't even want "another King George". Shay's rebellion.
We can be free without voting for anyone. Voting isn't democracy, it's mobocracy. If you think the President is powerful enough to actually have an impact on things, you really want the majority deciding who that's going to be?
That's the trouble with being biased; you're bound to contradict yourself at times.
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:25 PM
Ahhh, MASH... Wasn't allowed to watch it as a kid b/c it had "too many sex jokes."
Posted by: Virginia at April 19, 2004 09:25 PM
~~~ fishgrease - how's this? bush "captures" bin laden, but when that's not enough to boost his numbers, a terrorist attack on america forces him to postpone the election. ~~~
THERE YA GO!
Silly?
How possible is something like that? What percentage of probability? 5%? 20%?
No administration since Nixon would have scored above zero%
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:25 PM
..Aw Mom, I don't wanna go to bed!
Oh, all right.
Bye kids, see you tomorrow.
Posted by: cj at April 19, 2004 09:25 PM
Aerosmith is doing a drug ad?
Posted by: Rico at April 19, 2004 09:25 PM
Frank Burns aka Ferret-Face is from Mash (TV show and movie) -
Montgomery Burns is from the Simpsons.
I'd rather have either character as President than the Chimp.
Posted by: airhead at April 19, 2004 09:25 PM
Katherine Harris now wants to run for the U.S. Senate.
Posted by: PatLovesJaneane at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
Taft is the worst thing that happened to ohio since cleveland
Posted by: LiberalLog at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
"suicide is painless."
and this administration makes me think hard about that.
Posted by: erin at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
HAHAHAHAHA! A prayer vote!
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
Did anyone listen to that fat idiot Rush today??
Im wondering how he spun Woodwards allegation of Bush's ties with Saudi Arabi and the fact that he diverted 700 million from Afghanistan to Iraq
Posted by: Abe at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
Okay, the listen live link isn't working ... at least it is not working on my mac... what's going on?
Posted by: Robert at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
what happened on my last post?! should have read:
ginny
m.a.s.h. you know, "ferret face"
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
"50 Ways to Dump the Dubya" MP3
and other madness...
Click.
Posted by: The Subway Serenade at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
Kos -- guys, it's a soft "S" ... not a "zzzz" but an "ssss" ... long "o" soft "s" like how you would pronounce KOSE
Posted by: tori at April 19, 2004 09:26 PM
I disagree, the SCARY thing is the black box aspect, that jome day before the election a guy shows up at the elections office and says "I have a CD update for your voting machines I need to install" and there is NOBODY who is qualified to stop him, understand what the guy does or read his disk.
Posted by: danfishr at April 19, 2004 09:27 PM
> Aerosmith is doing a drug ad?
They're allowed to sell drugs on commercial radio? This IS liberal!
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:27 PM
Click my name for the Peace Pretzel--counter-propaganda posters my husband created. We should get some new ones online.
Any ideas for posters/slogans about the voting machine issue? We need to get "ordinary" people aware of this issue, in a way they can understand--that will sink in.
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:27 PM
lol
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:27 PM
suicide is painless."
and this administration makes me think hard about that.
Good One! >>>> OR Move To New Zealand!
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:27 PM
who on this cosmo planet are we allowed to function without blind faith in the e-system
Posted by: blklng at April 19, 2004 09:27 PM
"They're allowed to sell drugs on commercial radio? This IS liberal!"
I missed the 800 number...
Posted by: Rico at April 19, 2004 09:28 PM
Hey Subway! Good to see you on! (A ParrotHead for Dean)
Posted by: airhead at April 19, 2004 09:28 PM
Exit polls are known to be very accurate. If the exit polls differ by very much from the recorded vote, we should suspect fraud. (Recall that the networks called Florida for Gore based on exit polls. That's how we knew the officially recorded vote was fraudulent even before we learned the details.) We should plan to rely on exit polls as a check on the voting systems.
Posted by: aStatistician at April 19, 2004 09:28 PM
Robert...You have real?
(if they get their way, it might be in iTunes soon)
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:28 PM
~~~ fishgrease - how's this? bush "captures" bin laden, but when that's not enough to boost his numbers, a terrorist attack on america forces him to postpone the election. ~~~
"How possible is something like that? What percentage of probability? 5%? 20%?"
I'll post this again.
http://buzzflash.com/farrell/04/04/far04011.html
Will the 2004 Election be Called Off?
Posted by: Marlana at April 19, 2004 09:28 PM
Hve friends serious about Costa Rica if The Chimp boy wins again. Not beyond my reality too.
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:28 PM
why are dumb people always happy and how can i get some of them angry?
Posted by: hashcroft at April 19, 2004 09:28 PM
WEB-LOG
BLOG, aka. web journal.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:28 PM
Awe shucks, that was so sweet.
Sam, have you introduced Jenean to your parents?
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:29 PM
I'm going absentee. Just to be sure..heh heh heh.
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:29 PM
Renee,
your posters look great! I may print a couple for the march in DC this weekend.
Posted by: Lucky Maria at April 19, 2004 09:30 PM
..it's web - LOOOOOG...
(log, as in 'record')
*bash head against keyboard*
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:30 PM
i second that, great site renee!
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:30 PM
You can't immigrate to New Zeland, but you can go to Holland...
http://home.hetnet.nl/~clemensx/holmove.htm#3.What%20is%20required%20to%20immigrant%20to%20the
Posted by: FlamingBuddha at April 19, 2004 09:30 PM
Just because a computer is involved does not mean that a the voting results are flawed. Hand marked ballots should be used and counted by machine. They can still be counted by hand if disputes arise. The mere fact that the computer can be hand checked will go a long way toward discouraging any hacking.
Posted by: joe at April 19, 2004 09:31 PM
~~~~ Do people here seriously think such a takeover is possible in this country? The people would never stand for it. ~~~~
That's what most people thought before the opening battle of the Civil War.
It isn't what the "people" will stand for, its what Bush, Cheney and Rove THINK they will stand for. They've already gotten away with plenty, and the people have done nothing but grumble.
I think you're right... I can't see it happening. But tell me how this bunch gives up power! Tell me how that happens!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:31 PM
How to describe a blog: a Web Log or blog is a online Diary home page and some people use there diary to talk about news others complaining about fox canceling Wonderfalls ...the end
Posted by: ........X Conner Lingus X........ at April 19, 2004 09:31 PM
Thanks for covering voting machine issue. If we LIVE through Bush's first term, maybe our votes will count. Here is a great company from NJ. I just saw the owners last week at a Princeton forum. Check them out here:
http://www.aitechnology.com/votetrakker2/home.htm
They are ready to roll out machines and manufacture them in the US. Nice folks. Hope you'll contact them for an interview. They've been getting bullied, but at least they're still alive (unlike the guy from TruVote who was run off the road a couple of weeks ago!).
Our slogan needs to be Vote as if our lives depended on it!
Posted by: Sue at April 19, 2004 09:31 PM
this is going to sound sooo ignorant: please someone tell me how you got your name to appear on your posts? Mine never does. I am blog clueless.
Thanks!
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
Does reliance on blogs scare anybody else? Blogs allow you to find the news that you want to hear. There's really no system of accountability at all. (Although some would argue the same for TV, printed sources, etc.)
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
My crowd has always been half-joking about moving to Canada, but with the global warming predictions, New Zealand is looking like a much better choice. Very pretty too, and lots of sheep, where the ovine kind outnumbers the primate kind.
Posted by: Virginia at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
Re: your attitudinal reaction to the earlier technical malfunctions (been sounding fine for quite some time):
If you need to freak out, hit the cough button. "DON'T let it SHOW on the RADIO."
I am hoping you guys succeed, just wanted to give you a bit of advice I got waaaay back when I used to do community radio (back when there was such a thing, obviously a long, long time ago).
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
>>>>>>>Robert...You have real?
(if they get their way, it might be in iTunes soon)<<<<<<<
Yes I have Real. That is how I have been able to listen to Air America since day one.
Instead of getting the small window with the real player in it I am getting a small window with a partial view of the front page.
I do hope that they put it on iTunes because that would be great. iTunes is way better than Real from my experience.
Posted by: Robert at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
WOW, Marlana!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
eh, i'll move to Middle Earth. Sauron would be preferable to W.
Posted by: erin at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
Nobody wants to look like a wimp.
Posted by: Scott Lahteine at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
i think bush can give up power if his tax cuts and the patriot act are made permanent. he could technically run again in 08 and even if not, he did his part to dismantle democracy.
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
"It's really never been my habit to intrude,
But it don't take a rocket scientist,
To see we're bein' screwed.
So just raise your voices.
Don't be afraid of bein' rude.
There must be,
Fifty ways to dump the Dubya."
Click.
Posted by: The Subway Serenade at April 19, 2004 09:33 PM
In the box that says Name: type what ever handle you would like to post with.
Posted by: LG at April 19, 2004 09:33 PM
Lynn's site:
http://ecotalk.org/VotingSecurity.htm
Posted by: linky at April 19, 2004 09:33 PM
>no matter who you vote for, the government wins<
Right, and the hilarious thing is that *everytime* people get the President they wanted, they end up complaining about the ways he let them down. This can happen a billion times and, like Homer Simpson, they'll continue with the same attitude of, "anyone but the opposition, for my guy will take care of everything...".
Aren't primitive planets a hoot!?
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:33 PM
I aviod getting news from blogs. I only visit personal and dedicated blogs.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:33 PM
Markos is exactly right that we need to give the bully pulpit to those who opposed the war. That's why Dean and Kucinich should have gotten more support. I opposed the war, and every argument I gave has proven correct. But people are now mad at me for having been right. Nobody with whom I debated before the war has acknowledged that i was right. It's soooo damn frustrating.
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 09:34 PM
No need to apologize J&S.
Glad to see that everything's back to normal.
But please don't define the word "blog" any more. "It's like a horse without any legs?"
Blogs for dog and cats
Don't always need politics
Janeane's next movie
Posted by: yum yum at April 19, 2004 09:34 PM
i'm goin' fur trappin' in the clondike if dumya wins again.
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:34 PM
No, I meant Realplayer will be part of iTunes...they're looking for a partnership with Apple.
I also hate Real. In fact, I refused to install it until this. (It's the only thing they support d'oh.) And as soon as I did, it screwed up my computer!
PLEASE, AAR....OFFER OTHER STREAMING OPTIONS! REAL IS HORRIBLE!
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:34 PM
Wow, your blog has more bad comments and idiot comments than talk.abortion (you kiddies probably don't know what that is). I was going to ask why you wouldn't link to my favorite blog, but that I saw the quality of comment and I really don't want these people over there.
Posted by: dean at April 19, 2004 09:34 PM
I at first believed it but at the time I was working 80 hrs a week and couldn't really spend the time to look it up
Posted by: Jason at April 19, 2004 09:34 PM
You can support the war for reasons other than WMDs. I did.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:34 PM
We all need to get off our asses and call our elected officials on this paper trail issue!!!
http://ecotalk.org/VotingSecurity.htm
Posted by: lynky at April 19, 2004 09:35 PM
Vosh,
you are so right. I like to say, fool me once shame..fool me once...
never mind
Posted by: Lucky Maria at April 19, 2004 09:35 PM
A polotician who started out a speach by saying 42 and a wink would have my vote no matter what party they were with. DNA :)
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:35 PM
The Air America website won't let me log on. It says that I have "arrived at the website unexpectedly." I seem to have misplaced my engraved invitation. What now?
Posted by: karin at April 19, 2004 09:35 PM
"I at first believed it but at the time I was working 80 hrs a week and couldn't really spend the time to look it up"
That's because our nation's *productivity* has gone up!
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:35 PM
sam, as a jew TALK ABOUT ISRAEL. you can't really talk about iraq without israel if you know what's going on. scary kerry told tim russert this weekend that he supports bush 100% on his israel policy. mierda!
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:35 PM
Exactly, Sam. Finally the democracy idea sold. Now Bush claims it was a God-given inspiration. What a maroon.
Posted by: Scott Lahteine at April 19, 2004 09:36 PM
oh my god, you said israel as i just posted that!
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:36 PM
[i]You can support the war for reasons other than WMDs. I did.
Posted by matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:34 PM
[/i]
And you were wrong.
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 09:36 PM
When is Sacramento going to start broadcasting???
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 09:36 PM
If you also hate real, try real alternative, you can find it at fileforum.com. It uses the real codecs in media player classic, which means you don't have to install Real's spyware garbage in order to stream.
Posted by: Mathew Spolin at April 19, 2004 09:36 PM
is alan dushowitz going to be on tonight?
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:36 PM
"WOW, Marlana!"
Posted by Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:32 PM
Thanks. Somebody e-mailed it to me earlier. I had to read it about three times before it all sunk in. Cancelling the election is something I've thought about for awhile but never seriously considered they would do it.
Posted by: Marlana at April 19, 2004 09:36 PM
My dear Janeane,
I feel the need to again suggest a button that makes a bleeping noise so that you can create the illusion of swearing. I dunno, I feel certain that's a clever idea.
Sincerely,
Captain Kirk, Mrs.
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:36 PM
Not all computer scientists are for computer voting. Take a look at www.slashdot.org and you'll see that most independent-minded computer scientists are horrified by the new voting machines. Sure, the Microsoft folks are for it. But the Linux/Mac/Unix folks know how easy those machines will be to hack into. We tried to call in and got "all lines are busy" message. When's a good time to call?
Lynn and Brad
Posted by: Lynn at April 19, 2004 09:37 PM
~In the box that says Name: type what ever handle you would like to post with.~
Thanks LG.
so the info we registered with doesn't get stored?
Jest wonderin'
Thanks again.
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:37 PM
Hate to think of what Bush's nickname for "Negroponte" is...
Posted by: Chris O. at April 19, 2004 09:37 PM
>>>>>>No, I meant Realplayer will be part of iTunes...they're looking for a partnership with Apple.
I also hate Real. In fact, I refused to install it until this. (It's the only thing they support d'oh.) And as soon as I did, it screwed up my computer!
PLEASE, AAR....OFFER OTHER STREAMING OPTIONS! REAL IS HORRIBLE! <<<<<<<<<<<<
This is one place where steve jobs' ego can get in the way for a good cause. Hopefully, they never do that. I hope that AAR fixes the problem I am having because the programming is great and I don't like missing it.
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:37 PM
oh my god. sam actually said israel. thank you :)
doing any sort of reading around its obvious that israel has been pushing the US to engage in these wars, and they are STILL pushing to go into other countries.
Posted by: Eric at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
yeah "42" would grab the geek vote inside of three seconds. you ever see that old snl sketch about the debates at the star trek convention? franken did paul tsongas.
Posted by: erin at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
I like realplayer :p
Posted by: kmj at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Yeah and they are going to move my job to ireland or puerto rico in 4 years. The funny thing is I am a BIOLOGIST not a manufacturer. The jobs that they say are stable.
Posted by: Jason at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
condolezza rice was on oprah months ago and said bush described her as "mother hen" that makes sure all his affairs are in order...the way she described it made it sound horribly condescending
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
J,S & Kos: Wouldn't you think that if the Shrub, et al had ANY proof whatsoever of WMD that they wouldn't have splashed it all over the media. Remember Adlai Stevenson's presentation at the UN on the Russian's missles in Cuba. Anytime your government won't prove the basis for ANY war should send up red flags. Dubya is a NEOCONSERVATIVE - PERIOD.
Posted by: Liberal-at-large at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Et voilà - this administration's relationship with the Likud party. Thank you, Sam.
Posted by: angry penguin at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
I believe that info is used when you post to the O'Franken Factor Blog.
Posted by: LG at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Thanks Mathew! (one t?)
Mister...I don't know...when human rights are / have been violated, I feel like something has to be done. I can't believe the U.N. didn't do something years earlier.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Am I still valid if I was also against the war in Afghanistan?
Posted by: Scott Lahteine at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Click my name for Political Clothing.com
Iraq - U.S. Time Line Poster
A detailed overview of the relationship between Iraq and the U.S. from 1979 to Now. The color poster is 13"x19" but we also offer free black and white pdf versions that are 8.5x11 and 11x17. Easy to download, print, and distribute.
--
Reading List
Books you should read.
A People's History of the United States
By Howard Zinn. The most important book you can read if you want to engage in political discourse. Read it tomorrow.
Lies and the Lying Liars That Tell Them
by Al Franken. Franken discredits the right wing media machine with chapter titles "You Know Who I Don't Like? Ann Coulter" and "Supply Side Jesus". It's really good.
Dude, Where's My Country
by Michael Moore. Not his best work but fun.
Dreaming War
by Gore Vidal. If you've never read Vidal, start. This book is current but his books "Lincoln" and "Burr" are a must read.
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Apple wrote a memo back to Real saying No Deal. It was Real's attempt to get into the market, but Apple does not want them in the market.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Did anyone see the ABC and Gallup polls today? How in the hell is Bush leading Kerry? Can someone please explain this to me?
Posted by: jdog at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Weblogs used to be for geeks with no social skills. Now you need to be able to go on the radio if you have a popblog!
Posted by: Fran at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
The plan seems to take the kinds of polls that make the election seem close and fudge with the e-voting machines what cannot be obtained legitimately. Worse than Watergate; worse than Nixon.
Posted by: read 7 at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
The registering was for the main AAR website, this one is separately done. The AAR one does remember your login if you want, as does this one if you check the box.
Posted by: Virginia at April 19, 2004 09:39 PM
Woodaward said on CNN: "not a chance" Colin Powell will serve in secon Bush Admin. Wow!
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:39 PM
I believe that the sign-in data...name etc...is used when you post to the O'Franken Factor Blog.
Posted by: LG at April 19, 2004 09:39 PM
hmm...
Janeane: ...regurgitating sound bytes...
Sam: PLAY CLIP EIGHT!!
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:39 PM
....send all the CHICKENHAWKS to Iraqs.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:39 PM
Crap, now I need to go our and buy fancy pants.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:40 PM
~~~~ Fishgrease -- I fear they'd do it a different way: They'd play agent provocateur to a bunch of militia nutballs who would assassinate Kerry, the VP, and Democratic senators from states with Repug governors. ~~~~
Yep. I thought of that too. If they get caught, they've a ready-made excuse. TERRORISM!
Like Woodward's "Oil for Elections" scoop, even though that's historical and I believe every word of it, the more we realize they're capable of, the more we become immune from it.
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:40 PM
how do you explain to the average moderate that an ex poste facto justification for the war (don't you think sadaam is bad??), despite the fact that the WMDs are MIA? The average person, from my experience, doesn't care at all about the fact that we haven't justified the expressed reason we initially went in, just b/c we captured sadaam...
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:40 PM
"Those who support the war should be taxed?"
How would you ever decide who gets taxed though?
Posted by: Ksenija at April 19, 2004 09:40 PM
Jeanine is really wound up now... :D
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:40 PM
Emelius,
42 WAS the answer. I miss him every day.
JX
Posted by: JXBrown at April 19, 2004 09:40 PM
Thanks Mathew! (one t?)
Mister...I don't know...when human rights are / have been violated, I feel like something has to be done. I can't believe the U.N. didn't do something years earlier.
Posted by matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:38 PM
Well, then we need to invade Indonesia, China, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Most of South America...
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 09:40 PM
Faith based Military?
Not a bad friggen idea!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:40 PM
Dear Garafalo and Kos, the draft went on for a friggin decade in Vietnam. Supporting the draft just gives Bush more warm bodies. It doesn't provide any pro-democracy results.
Instead, we should be teaching civics, teaching REAL american history, reforming the electoral process, and cleaning out washington, not offering our bodies as a sacrifices to crude oil and Haliburton/Bechtel's bottom line.
This is "liberal?" Please. This is crypto-fascist.
Posted by: skallas at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
i would tax the nude in my bed. no, what's the word . . . welcome.
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
Two liberal supporting a mandatory draft? Come one, people... are there no pacifists here? Can we have someone from CCCO on?
Posted by: Charon at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
Someone remind me ---- 42??? Whats that about?
Posted by: airhead at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
Eat the chickenhawks.
Posted by: read 7 at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
Thanks LG,
You are blog guru for a day.
And Janeane...you are a hoot! LOL "fancypantselite???"
Posted by: I'masmadashell... at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
Disagree. No draft, but mandatory service for all Americans 18-20.
Posted by: SW at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
Nice fake indignation, Janeane.
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
Fishgrease: I thought they aready had a faith based military...the Crusaiders?
Posted by: LG at April 19, 2004 09:41 PM
42 is the meaning of life.
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
Man I just flip flopped on the draft issue. That is a very good point. There goes my credibility I just change my opinion over a better idea...
Posted by: Bham1600 at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
how do you decide who gets taxed-
have people follow the bumperstickers!
Posted by: erin at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
douglas adams!
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
I would tax all foreigners living abroad :)
Posted by: Charon at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
Dear Garafalo and Kos, the draft went on for a friggin decade in Vietnam. Supporting the draft just gives Bush more warm bodies. It doesn't provide any pro-democracy results.
Instead, we should be teaching civics, teaching REAL american history, reforming the electoral process, and cleaning out washington, not offering our bodies as a sacrifices to crude oil and Haliburton/Bechtel's bottom line.
This is "liberal?" Please. This is crypto-fascist.
Posted by: skallas at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
real is managing the hosting for the streams, and real and wma are the best for low bitrate feeds.
I dont like the proprietary format as much as anybody, but it works fine, and the player with a little whipping can be prevented from taking your system over. basically go into every preference page you can find and disable everything. :P
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
What is 42?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
Okay - mostly harmless :) got it.
Posted by: airhead at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
Support the War Tax Ideas:
Tax.....
1) Hummers
2) Gas
3) Guns
4) Pick Up Trucks
5) Confederate Flags
6) Red Bull
7) Fox News
8) WalMart
9) Coors Beer
10)Fur
Posted by: Tim the Democrat at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
~~~~ Woodaward said on CNN: "not a chance" Colin Powell will serve in secon Bush Admin. Wow! ~~~~
Imagine COLIN'S BOOK!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:42 PM
charon, nice name!
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:43 PM
babelfish!
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:43 PM
'so long,and thanks for all the fish'. funniest book title, ever!
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:43 PM
Powell is tragic.
Posted by: read 7 at April 19, 2004 09:43 PM
I hope J was being facetious about that Chuc kRangel draft comment. We don't need a freakin' draft. We need a rational administration and the right for members of the military to refuse to die for illegal causes.
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 09:43 PM
nixon was tragic.
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
airhead,
42- unless i'm totally off track, it's referring to "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe", a series of books that out geeks politico-geeks. (i'm a geek, i can say that).
42 is the answer to "life, the universe and everything"
but what is the question?
Posted by: erin at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
LOVE the The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. Have you seen the online guide?
What is h2g2?
h2g2 is an unconventional guide to life, the universe and everything, an encyclopaedic project where entries are written by people from all over the world. h2g2 was launched in April 1999, and the BBC took over the running of the site in February 2001 as part of our drive to develop new and innovative online services.
The Guide is written by visitors to the website - people like you - and already it has thousands of entries on all sorts of subjects. The result is a living, breathing guide that's constantly being updated and revised, driven forward by the very people who use it.
h2g2's inspiration comes from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the best-selling book by Douglas Adams (who was one of the original founders of the site). Back in 1971, Douglas lay drunk in a field in Innsbruck, Austria, thinking about the galaxy and how you might find your way around it. His solution, the 'Guide', was an ingenious device that offered advice about almost any place, object, entity or event you might care to name - all at the convenience of your fingertips. This vision is now approaching reality on the Internet in the form of h2g2.
(click my name)
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
Bandhar on CNN w/ Bob Woodward saying what Woodward wrote is all true.
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
powell is the othello of out time. hah!
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
i think it should be mandatory for all age-eligible family members of congress and the administration to serve in the military and fight in whichever war congress is voting for at that moment. that would really focus the minds of those who vote to send other people's family and friends off to war. they would actually have to think about maybe sacrificing their own flesh and blood.
that would probably solve that problem of military pay and veterans' benefits, too.
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
Israel...
Theory: Bush is backing Sharon specifically to incite more violence. It's good for business.
Aside: Billy Graham believed these were the "end of days," didn't he?
Posted by: Scott Lahteine at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
Reinstate the draft? Are you all really serious? Who do you think will, really, get drafted? The next incarnation of the Bush boys? I'm really skeptical of that, mainly because I'm sure that the most likely target of a draft would be the already disenfranchised poor. What's the value of teaching them the horrors of war by sending them into the crossfire?
Now a law that would draft any senator or representative that voted for a war, I'd support that.
Posted by: Tommy at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
romeo and juliet was tragic.
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
i love that they play u2 all the time
Posted by: erin at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
Mister...we need to do something. The biggest problem in this country is apathy.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
anyone watching Larry King??? Prince Bandar is on the phone.
Posted by: I'masmadashell... at April 19, 2004 09:45 PM
Bring back the draft and end the war. Americans would never put up with it. In the end, people just don't want to go.
Posted by: Tim the Democrat at April 19, 2004 09:45 PM
The strategy of a draft might backfire. Here's why: College would become very popular and people would either get loans or their rich parents would pay for it. This leaves the poor people who weren't smart enough to get into college.
Now I think of it, I'll be that in the most secret places of the gov. the Vietnam War was actually won if the only goal was to show that we were willing to go to drastic lengths to fight Russia (like throwing cannon fodder at them).
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:45 PM
Janeane,
How did Lewis "Scooter" Libby get his nickname "Scooter"???
Try this link:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=262045
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 09:45 PM
I dont believe any of those polls... Bush could not win this election if the people know half of what he really has done.
Posted by: Abe at April 19, 2004 09:45 PM
Bush was in my hometown, working class and economically troubled Pittsburgh today (Cheney the sneak was there last night)
Anti-Bush protesters were required to stand in Cleveland.
Posted by: Dutch Masters at April 19, 2004 09:45 PM
~~~~ Fishgrease: I thought they aready had a faith based military...the Crusaiders? ~~~~
No, that's religious faith. Each citizen gets to earmark a certain small percentage of their taxes if they have "faith" in one conflict or another. Nothing to do with religious faith.
Probably wouldn't work, but its interesting.
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:45 PM
........that moving mic makes little 'zing' sound occassionally.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
Sorry, but I have always been against the idea of a mandatory draft.
Posted by: Leftistindependent at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
>I hope J was being facetious
She's not, her and kos are sorely out of touch with reality with this issue.
You want to stop the war? If we still had the Fairness Doctrine the media would be a lot more balanced and the lies would have been exposed before we even attacked.
Posted by: skallas at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
Found this article on Scooter Libby:
On that topic, Mr. Libby, known universally as Scooter, was mum.
Mr. Libby will at least talk about his nickname, which he got the day his father watched him crawling across his crib and joked, "He's a Scooter!"
http://college4.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2002/02/18/2141292.xml
Posted by: mpower1952 at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
Tim...right on cue with exactly what I was talking about...
People think things are worth being fought for but they certainly aren't worth fighting for.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
Yes the senate has to confirm him for ambassador.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
he needs to be confirmed -- YES
Posted by: cms at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
Is Iraq even a country? Iraq is under US jurisdiction now.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
I dont believe any of those polls... Bush could not win this election if the people know half of what he really has done.
Posted by: Abe at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
to police, 'king of pain':
there's a little black spot on the world today-
that's our ambassador to iraq
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
Janeane and a hand-held mic = Sassy :)
Posted by: airhead at April 19, 2004 09:46 PM
Janeane rocks!!!
Posted by: Lisa's Dad at April 19, 2004 09:47 PM
Fish: I like your idea. I'd fund something I supported.
Posted by: LG at April 19, 2004 09:47 PM
"You have messed with the primary forces of the universe Mr. Beal."
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:47 PM
under your premiss no one from the 80's or 90's would be approved for goverment service
Posted by: blklng at April 19, 2004 09:47 PM
if my name was michael i would encourage people to call me hand held mike. sadly, it's not.
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:47 PM
This is from the current lead article on Salon.com. Perhaps this idea might be behind all the anti-intellectualism we hear coming from the right: "But one of his (Rober O. Paxton, author of "The Anatomy of Facism") most important points is that fascism is less a plan for governing -- the Nazis and Italian Fascists were perfectly willing to eject parts of their stated programs if they interfered with forming fortuitous alliances with the rich and powerful -- than it is a strategy for seizing power. To do that you have to collect lots of enthusiastic followers. The first modern campaigners, fascists realized that for the less educated and attentive classes, politics was a matter of feeling not ideas. So, as Paxton writes, "Fascism was an affair of the gut more than the brain."
Posted by: Embedded at April 19, 2004 09:47 PM
McCheesney was better, though...
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:47 PM
If memory serves, Negroponte has been senate approved twice in his career so far.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:48 PM
Tim: In the end, people just don't want to go.
Crack open a history book. How many years did Vietnam last?
Yeah. We accuse the other side of ignoring the lessons of history, yet here are *some* of you asking to be drafted and draft others! Pathetic.
Posted by: skallas at April 19, 2004 09:48 PM
Robert O. Paxton.
Posted by: Embedded at April 19, 2004 09:48 PM
fishgrease -- Bush better not have second term
Posted by: cms at April 19, 2004 09:48 PM
y\"you have MEDDLED with..." :)
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:49 PM
the police "when the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around...."
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:49 PM
We liberated 10,000 Iraqi civilians from their earthly burdens.
Posted by: Scott Lahteine at April 19, 2004 09:49 PM
If Bush wins a second term, I am going to piss and moan for 4 more years.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:49 PM
>>> skallas
Janeane, as I, would call for a draft with ZERO exemptions. Do you think if the Shrub would have to think - even one bit - that either or both of his twins girls (who are both of imminent draft age) would be subject to a "war" draft, would have considered another path in Iraq.
"Well, the UN might be a good thing y'all."
Posted by: Liberal-at-large at April 19, 2004 09:49 PM
>The biggest problem in this country is apathy.<
Yes, but they were raised that way! You can't just tell people to stop having the kind of brain you end up with after spending your *entire* childhood in school. We are born with critical thinking faculties and imaginations. These things are atrophied, usually entirely, after an entire childhood spent distracted with busy work.
Only succeeding generations being raised differently will change things. That's the only way change has ever happened!
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:49 PM
Good Douglas Adams insight on politics...
Take me to your lizard…
…’It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see…’ (this is just after a huge robot lands in downtown London, killing people, doing billions of dollars of damage - and announcing ‘I come in peace, take me to your lizard’)
‘You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?’
‘No,’ said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, ‘nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people.’
‘Odd,’ said Arthur, ‘I thought you said it was a democracy.’
‘I did,’ said Ford. ‘It is.’
‘So,’ said Arthur, hoping he wasn’t sounding ridiculously obtuse, ‘why don’t people get rid of the lizards?’
‘It honestly doesn’t occur to them,’ said Ford. ‘They’ve all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they’ve voted in more or less approximates to the government they want.’
‘You mean they actually vote for the lizards?’
‘Oh yes,’ said Ford with a shrug, ‘of course.’
‘But,’ said Arthur, going for the big one again, ‘why?’
‘Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard,’ said Ford, ‘the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?’
‘What?’
‘I said,’ said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, ‘have you got any gin?’
‘I’ll look. Tell me about the lizards.’
Ford shrugged again.
‘Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them,’ he said. They’re completely and utterly wrong, but someone’s got to say it.’
‘But that’s terrible,’ said Arthur.
‘Listen, bud,’ said Ford, ‘If I had one Altarian dollar for every time I heard one bit of the Universe look at another bit of the Universe and say ‘That’s terrible’ I wouldn’t be sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin. But I haven’t and I am.
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:49 PM
I grew up in the 70s
I already have Fancy Pants.
Not that I can still fit into them!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:49 PM
can you imagine anyone serving in the current admin not being tainted by the smell of it, the war that is
Posted by: blklng at April 19, 2004 09:50 PM
Thou shall not give false witness.
Posted by: read 7 at April 19, 2004 09:50 PM
Condi: parsing is her middle name.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:51 PM
So.... if we can't believe anything they say... how can we doubt what they're capable of?
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:51 PM
fishgrease
try a little fishgrease!
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:51 PM
horror
Posted by: read 7 at April 19, 2004 09:51 PM
ster...we need to do something. The biggest problem in this country is apathy.
Posted by matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:44 PM
---
We were doing something under Clinton and Bush #1. We can't do everything, and this war made things worse. There will now probably be a civil war and probably genocide. We've only exchanged one bad situation for another. Maybe a worse one but one at lest as bad for sure.
Invasion of Iraq is not justifiable even on humanitarian grounds.
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 09:51 PM
Renee, get a divorce and marry me! :)
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:51 PM
the horror
Posted by: read 7 at April 19, 2004 09:51 PM
Vosh...maybe I'm naive but it seems to me that if people were forced to acknowledge what was going on in the world, they wouldn't be able to maintain apathy. No matter how they were brought up.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:51 PM
"The strategy of a draft might backfire. Here's why: College would become very popular and people would either get loans or their rich parents would pay for it. This leaves the poor people who weren't smart enough to get into college."
Posted by Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:45 PM
The current draft bill, I'll post a link to it below, doesn't allow you for people to get out of it by going to college. You'll be allowed to finish your current semister and that's it.
http://thomas.loc.gov search for bill HR163
Posted by: Marlana at April 19, 2004 09:52 PM
JOIN THIS AIR AMERICA ONLINE COMMUNITY:
http://b17.ezboard.com/bairamericaradio50090
Posted by: AX at April 19, 2004 09:52 PM
Liberal: Janeane, as I, would call for a draft with ZERO exemptions.
Don't make me laugh. The mentally ill kid should go too? Everyone with influence will find a way out.
The larger issue is should a government own the lives of their citizens? I say no.
The even larger issue is the profound lack of a sense of history and reality. If you want to change things adding your body to the pile of corpses coming from Iraq is not going to work.
Getting a CO is next to impossible as COs must be pacifists IN ALL CASES AND PROVE IT, most people aren't.
Funny, we accuse the other side of "groupthink" but if Garafalo or some blogger says "Draft and die in Iraq for the sake of democracy" you guys start acting like Dittoheads.
THINK.
It doesn't hurt.
Posted by: skallas at April 19, 2004 09:52 PM
Do we really want to force our children into an institution whose main function is violence?
Wouldn't it be better to provide free college education and job training to everyone. If the population was taught critical thinking skills, support for Bush's war wouldn't have occured in the first place.
Posted by: Marc at April 19, 2004 09:52 PM
condi, not matter how thin ya' slice it, it's still baloney!
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:52 PM
I can't stand this leftist chest pounding. This self-righteousness will only alienate swing voters. I'm done with the Majority Report. Al Franken is the only guy I can trust not to act like a self-righteous prick. Goodbye M.R. A word in parting - having worked on Howard Dean's campaign, I know from that very disappointing outcome that the average American voter doesn't give a flying fuck how angry you all are, or how right you all were on ANY issue. Bye asswipes.
Posted by: Jon at April 19, 2004 09:52 PM
i'masmadashell,
what's prince brandar saying on larry king ?
Posted by: pam at April 19, 2004 09:52 PM
KERRY SUPPORTS NEW SHARON INITIATIVE & ASSASSINATION:
thebigwedding forced to pull kerry advertising from website
***read more at thebigwedding.blogspot.com***
Posted by: ampro at April 19, 2004 09:53 PM
As to lies...
A basic tenet of ultra-right-wingism is "Assert The Opposite."
It makes them tingle more when the jingoes dance.
Posted by: Scott Lahteine at April 19, 2004 09:53 PM
"We liberated 10,000 Iraqi civilians from their earthly burdens."
We have a poster on that theme. Looks like its out of date again. Click my name (but not if you're easily disturbed--it's not super graphic, but it is disturbing).
Posted by: Renee in Ohio at April 19, 2004 09:53 PM
Bye, Jon.
Posted by: goody at April 19, 2004 09:53 PM
You mean that trenchcoat-waring Bush/Hitler youth look like the Columbine "kids"??
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 09:53 PM
A lot of people are secretly, where even they can't see it in their own minds, hoping to see America crush those dirty Arabs like a bug. It's like in the movies where the good guy is winning, but he keeps taking a beating, so then he gets *extra pissed* and kicks arse. Look at the popularity of revenge fantasy movies.
Relying on votes is a Mobocracy. We need a Shay's rebellion that doesn't get destroyed in the first few seconds like the first one did.
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:53 PM
the bigger the lie, the more people will believe in it
~adolf the hitler
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:53 PM
Jon, the average American is busy watching American Idol and The Swan, not listening to liberal talk radio at Prime Time.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 09:54 PM
FLIP FLOP.....time.
I don't believe in UN..... but UN please help us.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:54 PM
'bye, jon. we'll do shrimp coctails. call me!
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:54 PM
If Kos and Garafalo would put down the "draft me" kool-aid, which didn't work in Vietnam, they could be advocating compulsory voting, free higher education, the Fairness Doctrine, etc.
Sadly, shouting "draft" is just an attention getter at the expense of better ideas.
Posted by: skallas at April 19, 2004 09:54 PM
Mister...I agree this war has made things worse but I believe it's because of how it was carried out. In other words, I do not believe that all U.S. involvment makes things worse.
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:54 PM
ah, sorry, I was replying to the person who wondered how Bush could still be popular in the polls.
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:55 PM
Vosh, they changed the law. There is no longer a school deferment in the draft should it be reinstated. Mandatory service or draft, either way, it is anti-freedom and anti-American. PLUS the pentagon opposes it because draftees make bad soldiers.
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 09:55 PM
Megalomaniacal right wingers have no problem with the pathological lie.
Of course, the pathological liar is someone who believes it to be instantly the truth the moment it is uttered.
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 09:55 PM
~~~~ Fish: I like your idea. I'd fund something I supported. ~~~~
Not my idea. Janeane mentioned something like it. Fully un-implementable... but damned interesting nonetheless!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:55 PM
The Ny times article they are refering to stated that entire nucleal facilities buildings have gone missing.. Wow!!!
Posted by: Abe at April 19, 2004 09:55 PM
The fact that Bush doesn't secure all those facility is a sign that there IS no WMD.
Otherwise they would be very afraid WMD falls into terrorists hand.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:55 PM
(Sidenote: does anybody else think the forum should be changed to some kind of...chat room form or something? I mean, posting is so quick during shows that it's hard to read!)
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:56 PM
The following technical difficulties exists at AAR's website:
First, the listen live link no longer starts up Real player.
O'Franken Factor Link leads only to the front page.
Log Out link leads to page that says: "We're sorry, you've arrived at this page unexpectedly. Please to return to the home page."
When you try to E-Mail AAR from the web site the link leads to the same message.
The sample audio clip link has the same message.
AAR programming is extremely enjoyable. Your technical difficulties are extremely annoying.
Posted by: Robert at April 19, 2004 09:56 PM
Mister...I agree this war has made things worse but I believe it's because of how it was carried out. In other words, I do not believe that all U.S. involvment makes things worse.
Posted by matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:54 PM
----
I disagree. It ALWAYS doews. What you may be talking about is NATO or UN involvement, but even that is debatable.
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 09:56 PM
poor jon went bye bye
he was mad that we were mad
little bird take flight
Posted by: Lucky Maria at April 19, 2004 09:56 PM
Congrats on this radio station...I'm hooked. Its great to listen to real Americans and not blowhards like Rush and Bill O.
Posted by: O Canada Factor at April 19, 2004 09:56 PM
>Vosh, they changed the law<
Mister-
Did wonder about that. Many thanks.
And how about that President Frank Burns, huh?
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 09:56 PM
he basically agreed with what Woodward wrote but tried to make the case that he didn't know for sure whether war was really coming, blah blah. It wasn't stated for sure. (uh huh)
He also said that they always want the incumbant pres to win but that that's for the american people to decide. (uh huh again)
I'm going to tape the rebroadcast so I can see the whole thing. Woodwards was pretty good at rebutting him.
Posted by: I'masmadashell... at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
who was that 'jon' guy, anyway? allright! fess up! who brought HIM?
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
i heard that theyalready tried to plant WMD but were accidentally killed by friendly-fire
Posted by: jojo at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
1) Be careful about verified voting. Being too negative about "your vote won't count" or something similar could be a Repuglican effort to disenfranchise move voters. Let's just be careful. Things need to be fixed, but maybe Mr. Diebold's comments were premeditated to convince would-be voters to stay home.
2) Repuglicans Suck!
Posted by: Ed Terry at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
What is scary about all this? People that wont watch the news, wont read a book, and think they are powerless, and they can't affect the outcome of an election.
I had lunch with a co-worker that feels this way. He has no children and does not worry about the future of the nation. He is so cynical he believes that no matter who he votes for things will be the same. He believes the commercials on television/the sound bites.
These are the people we need to wake up.
I really felt like this is the key for us .. waking up these people so they hear more of the other side on the radio and on TV.
AAR needs to be on more radio stations, and we need to start an email campaign to send the link to listen online to everyone on our mailing lists.
Posted by: researcher at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
Robert...does this work?
http://airamericaradio.com/bin/mediaPlayer.cfm
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
SEPTEMBER: NUCUlyar and Oh-sama will show up!!!
in FOx news.
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
Mister, well put. Sadly neither Garafalo or Sam is willing to argue over Kos on the draft, but they'll get outraged over just about anything going on.
This anti-america draft shit plus the "Psychic" from Friday makes me think this show will be first on the chopping block.
Posted by: skallas at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
Sam, you've gotta break that "nook-you-larr" pronounciation habit. I'm starting to fear that you're a hard-righter in disguise.
Posted by: Broken Robot at April 19, 2004 09:58 PM
maria
you're always right on!
"maria...i just met a girl called maria..."
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:58 PM
HEY!
The idea of Bush's administration not ceding power upon losing the election would make a STUNNING novel!
Somebody needs to work night and day on it and get it out in a month!
Posted by: Fishgrease at April 19, 2004 09:58 PM
For a second imagine if a Republican advocated a compulsory draft on that show just now. Both J and Sam would be screaming.
Sad.
I really like these guys too.
Posted by: skallas at April 19, 2004 09:58 PM
Geez, Jon, with courageous and temperate individuals like you in his camp how did Dean fail?
Al Franken has an ego that would be hard pressed to squeeze into the Astrodome.
Posted by: Dutch Masters at April 19, 2004 09:58 PM
From a Radio Free Europe story today:
"Negroponte will become ambassador in Baghdad when the United States hands over political power to an interim Iraqi government by a 30 June deadline. The appointment needs to be confirmed by the U.S. Senate."
Posted by: Anonymous Sources at April 19, 2004 09:58 PM
Why are we suprised that e-voting is succeptable to fraud? Every sweeps period local news does the obligatory "Is your grocery stores optical scanner accurate?" and of course the answer is always no.
On a happier note, here is a link to my pictures from our bakesale yesterday (we made nearly $2000 in 4.5 hours on a Sunday).
http://photos.yahoo.com/partisanbaby
Posted by: Partisan Baby at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
Guest Suggestion: Gore Vidal
I think it is shameful that Gore Vidal has been 'black-listed' by the corporate media.
Mr. Vidal has been writing about the current administration and its goals since Mr. Bush's 'selection' as our President.
Read Vidal's book 'Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace'. Indispensable.
Posted by: vallon at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
Sorry I'm late posting just getting home from work.Who's coming on next hour?
Posted by: Michael at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
Researcher: I read books, magazines, newpapers, television and I still feel like it's still not enough.
Posted by: LG at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
"... we'll all be dead." We can hope that some us will be long dead before others.
Posted by: read 7 at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
oh gawd.....they are playing Ravel now...
Posted by: wanda at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
Tami Silicio is "a contract employee from the Seattle area who works the night shift at the cargo terminal" at Kuwait International Airport. She took pictures of flag draped coffins being readied for flight to Germany. The Seattle Times ran the picture (my link). Please keep an eye out for any press reports of retaliation against Ms Silicio for potentially violating contractual secrecy obligations. We must defend those whistle-blowers courageous enough to fight for the future of the republic.
Posted by: mbc at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
Guest Suggestion: Gore Vidal
I think it is shameful that Gore Vidal has been 'black-listed' by the corporate media.
Mr. Vidal has been writing about the current administration and its goals since Mr. Bush's 'selection' as our President.
Read Vidal's book 'Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace'. Indispensable.
Posted by: vallon at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
Thanks Janeane! I am outa-here.
Posted by: airhead at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
spike incoming
Posted by: tanstaafl at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
JOIN THIS AIR AMERICA ONLINE COMMUNITY:
http://b17.ezboard.com/bairamericaradio50090
Nothing against blogs, but this forum needs members... so come on!
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
A funeral march introducing Combs LOL
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
i got your huge spike...HANGIN!
kevr0n
Posted by: kevr0n at April 19, 2004 09:59 PM
O Canada Factor-
Yes, blowhards. I liked Janeanes "inner Archi Bunker". I have been comparing folks like Rush or his followers who talk loudly in bars to Fred Flintstone!
Posted by: Vosh at April 19, 2004 10:00 PM
i posted a question last week about knowing future guests.Does anyone know where to find that out?
Posted by: Michael at April 19, 2004 10:00 PM
You are no longer on EVIL CLEAR-CHANNEL OWNED XM ...
... but you are STILL on SIRIUS STREAM 125!
Posted by: Edgewater Joe at April 19, 2004 10:01 PM
Mister...when you say it 'ALWAYS makes it worse' do you mean that nobody benefit from US involvement or that there are always rocky roads? The latter I can agree with but the former..?
Posted by: matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 10:01 PM
Mister, well put. Sadly neither Garafalo or Sam is willing to argue over Kos on the draft, but they'll get outraged over just about anything going on.
This anti-america draft shit plus the "Psychic" from Friday makes me think this show will be first on the chopping block.
Posted by skallas at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM
----
I hope not. I love the show.
Hey, S&J, how about having me on so I can convince you the draft is bad. I have a blog.
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 10:01 PM
Hour Three blog is up.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 10:01 PM
Evolution...the dinosaurs...4.5 billion year old uranium radioisotope dating....
There's a logical explanation that allows for God the Creator.
What is the Bible?
It is filled with stories that are TESTS of FAITH.
The Abraham/Isaac story.
The Jesus/centurion story (or is that parable)?
So what can the dinosaur bones and "geological record" be except a test of faith from God??
This is your test of faith! Is the universe 15 billion, or only 4000 years beyond the 6 days of creation??
s/
Mitch the apostate from Christianity
Posted by: Mitch in RocklinCA at April 19, 2004 10:01 PM
Hour Three blog is up.
Posted by: Emelius Browne at April 19, 2004 10:01 PM
3rd hour blog is up
Posted by: LG at April 19, 2004 10:02 PM
I would love to know how many people are subscribing to Sirius just to get this feed. I know I am.
Posted by: Lucky Maria at April 19, 2004 10:02 PM
I pity Powell... if anyone see's the interview he gave today to AP just look at his eyes.. he keeps on shifting and he looks uncertain and uncomfertable
Posted by: Abe at April 19, 2004 10:02 PM
I am trying to stream the show but the website link is not working. It usually gives me a good real media stream, but is not now. What should I do?
Posted by: Help me at April 19, 2004 10:02 PM
"Robert...does this work?
http://airamericaradio.com/bin/mediaPlayer.cfm
Posted by matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 09:57 PM "
Nope. Just get the front page. Either Macs are no longer able to interpret AAR properly or AAR is seriously f*cked up.
Posted by: Robert at April 19, 2004 10:02 PM
Gore Vidal is borrrrrrin zzzzzzz g -- just thinking about it makes me sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzpppp
Posted by: Al at April 19, 2004 10:03 PM
If Bush thinks this war is so right and just, then he must sacrifice one of the twins. Hey! They can at least go the the front lines and entertain the troops. Only problem is, the liquor industry would suffer a blow when they go! Oh well, the price of war, right?
Posted by: Liza at April 19, 2004 10:04 PM
>> skallas
Ad hominem, eh? Of course there w/b exemptions for medical and other reasons. And yes there w/b those who would play the system. For the record, I know war sucks. Have you been there; I have? My point is the Shrub hasn't, and anyone who has would "move mountains" not to be at war, particularly if they're children could even possibly be subject to a draft.
And again, knock off the ad hominem, eh?
Posted by: Liberal-at-large at April 19, 2004 10:04 PM
Mister...when you say it 'ALWAYS makes it worse' do you mean that nobody benefit from US involvement or that there are always rocky roads? The latter I can agree with but the former..?
Posted by matthewwithanm at April 19, 2004 10:01 PM
-----
Unilateral US involvement in other countries governance is always catastrophic. The whole world sees it as Empirical hypocricy - and rightly so.
That's why we need the UN or NATO to lend legitimacy. The coalition of the not-so-willing didn't change that. It was transparent tom-foolery.
Posted by: Mister at April 19, 2004 10:05 PM
i am now taking over the xm dial!!!
Posted by: milqtoast sissy pseudo liberal at April 19, 2004 10:05 PM
Kos is right... listening to Ken Pollack or Matt Yglesias tell me anything is like getting economic advice from James (Dow 26000) Glassman. I can't help but laugh to think of it.
Posted by: Al2 at April 19, 2004 10:05 PM
Well the problems I am having aren't Mac related. My sister has a PC and she is not able to get any audio either.
Please! Somebody fix this!
Posted by: Robert at April 19, 2004 10:07 PM
HHHHMMMMMMM.
Damn XM Radio. I bought my XM radio unit just to hear AAR. Little did I know that they wouldn't cover the entire schedule. I have gone to the XM Radio web site http://www.xmradio.com/index.jsp and sent in my appeal for them to carry the entire line up. If you are in the same boat as me please do the same. If they don't pick up the entire schedule I will be switching to Sirius soon. I hear thay have better reception anyways.
Posted by: Harumman at April 19, 2004 10:12 PM
Janeane just described St Mary's High School in Rutherford NJ.
Posted by: BuckFush at April 19, 2004 10:13 PM
"no matter who you vote for the govt wins" we're voting FOR the government!!!! of course they win. by the way, this isn't a democracy, it's a democratic republic. WE elect the people we think are the best for the job.
i agree with whoever wrote that the "the machine is voting for you" was a really inane statement. are there flaws in a e-voting senerio. of course. but my god, are we really going to hand count 100 million ballots?
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 10:15 PM
AAArgh! The stream went down again!!
Posted by: fingal at April 19, 2004 10:17 PM
What about Powell's denial of Woodward's book and the points he puts forward? Doesn't this take credibility away?
What the...?
"Please tune back during broadcast hours."
Why is this message coming up on the net stream now?
Posted by: adam at April 19, 2004 10:18 PM
Hey...what happened to the stream? Hello, its off.
Posted by: O Canada Factor at April 19, 2004 10:18 PM
Still no stream.
Posted by: leftyDave at April 19, 2004 10:19 PM
HEY AIR AMERICA:
If you need some money to help make Air America Radio more reliable (both as a broadcaster and a web streamer), please put up a Pay Pal link or something like that. I am sure many of us would contribute a couple of bucks if it means we could listen via the web uninterupted, broadcast in NY without double-vision and maybe air condition your studios.
How bout it?
Posted by: Ed Terry at April 19, 2004 10:20 PM
Thanks for having Dr Ellsberg on - one of
my early guest recommendations!
This man is the very epitome of courage.
I wish more people in the CIA, the FBI, the
NSC and the pentagon would stand up and
expose the misadventures of this administration.
Posted by: Bob at April 19, 2004 10:22 PM
Air America...you're no longer streaming...maybe unscrew a couple of light bulbs.
Posted by: O Canada Factor at April 19, 2004 10:25 PM
Try wlib.com; Listen Live for a feed
Posted by: joe at April 19, 2004 10:29 PM
Fuck Aaron Brown the stupid fucking Bush
stooge. I hate that mongrel sumbitch.
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 10:29 PM
Hakuna Matata means nothing here,
When kids work in sweatshops,
And live in fear,
Where they're told it's a treat,
Eating nine times a week,
And we just don't care.
They can't have a union or health care plan,
And where they're workin' ain't Disneyland.
But don't Mickey look swank,
Dancin' straight to the bank,
'Cause we just don't care...
It's the third world after all
It's the third world after all
It's the third world after all
It's the New World Uber Alles...
Click.
Posted by: The Subway Serenade at April 19, 2004 10:31 PM
their comments about the draft bothered me. because it's always the boys from Kentucky and Tenn, the ones J said no one was paying attention to, who wind up getting drafted in the first place. the people with power and money find a way to get out of life and death obligations.
and her comment about a "double taxation on people who supported the war" doesn't that make us just as anti free speech as the people she excoriated for throwing cans at the war protesters? aren't we liberals the ones who are supposed to be able to welcome dissent and let people disagree with us, no matter how vehemently we feel it?
Posted by: at April 19, 2004 10:32 PM
Great programme...look forward to tomorrows show. Goodnight AA.
Posted by: O Canada Factor at April 19, 2004 10:56 PM
PORTLAND! REPRESENTIN'!
Seriously, it's just now on KPOJ
Posted by: Marion Delgado at April 20, 2004 12:23 AM
Thank you i used to watch the news on tv not to be informed. Just to get an idea how far beyond fucd our great country is . Not that we were great before GW but come on this guys speaches are like watching a bad SNL skit. Janeane and sam you rock i just moved to portland. I found your show and i am listen almost constantly. Janeane I like the New hair color you looking hott
sorry just had to add that. Well i am 22 and i hope but the time i hit my midlife crisis this county still exsists. keep up the good work
Posted by: suck it gw at April 20, 2004 01:18 AM
On electronic Voting...
Hi I listened to the story on electronic voting and I'm amazed! No paper verifiction? What if the power goes out or worse someone hacks?
Anyway in 2000 us Canadians watched with dismay, the largst democracy in the world has major flaws in its electoral system. All elections in Canada are controled strictly by the federal body: Elections Canada
Also no matter where you are you have the same ballot format. The ballot has each question with the choices with a circle.. yes we still mark an X! And people had count them. We haven't had a major controversy in voting in recent memory (at least that I'm aware of). Although not a perfect system we do get our votes counted reletively quickly.
Its simple and STANDARDIZED and the same ballot format is used whetehr you vote in municipal, provincial, federal elections, by-elections and referendums. The election laws are standardized as well.
Sometimes the ballots are quite big, but one things to remember is that we do not have a set election day. Hence you are normally only voting at one government level at a time.
Al little bit about our ballots:
http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?section=faq&document=faqvoting&lang=e&anchor=voting15&textonly=false#voting15
I do admit that now are biggest problem in Canada is apathy (we're averaging about 65% for our last three federal elections) - in part because of the way that we vote for our leaders.. however thats a different issue :)
Posted by: angela at April 20, 2004 01:53 AM
@ things I should clear up..
1) actually elections canada doesn't help with provinial and municipal elections, but the ballot has the same format. Also election laws are a federal mandate.
2) Elections canada is not run by the government, it reports to Parliment... although some have argured this is the same thing.
Posted by: angela at April 20, 2004 02:12 AM
>Vosh...maybe I'm naive but it seems to me that if people were forced to acknowledge what was going on in the world, they wouldn't be able to maintain apathy. No matter how they were brought up.<
How would you force people to look at the truth?
Schools were invented to create corporate citizens. Their function is to get in the way of normal growth and development and extend childhood into the teen years, if not beyond. The idea of schooling was first thought of in Prussia. Even today Germans pride themselves on being very educated (that was also the first part of the world to see the modern phenomenon of high teen suicide rates, among other modern social woes) and homeschooling in Germany is absolutely illegal. Why did Bertrand Russel call American schooling the most radical social experiment of the 20th century next to the Russian Revolution?
Learning is as natural as breathing, it can't be stopped, just perverted. There is no scientific theory of learning behind the schooling enterprise. There is no reason in the universe to believe in coerced instruction, but this is what happens when a generation is brought up not trusted to learn and it feels natural then to not trust their own children to learn and the cycle continues -- meaning that schooling is based on a giant assumption, that schools are an indispensible part of the fabric of society. It's just an unconsious assumption. Astonishing! Only damaged imaginations could let that go by without question.
For a certain breed of democrat, I've noticed, school teachers are the noblest kind of human being and schools can't be given enough resources. They just aren't going to hear different, even if the history and the logic (or illogic) is laid out before them. That's the triumph of compulsory schooling; that so few can imagine doing things differently.
Remember, our mental comfort zones aren't detectable unless we are know what to look for -- that is, you don't feel it when they shrink. You feel like the same person. This is what makes excessive tv watching so insidious. Consider yourself at 20 years old. If you heard about Albert Einstein declaring that schools quash the imagination (indeed, his criticism of schooling was scathing) you would look at yourself and think, "gee, I feel fine". Well, if you were kept inside that building called school since age 5 HOW in the heck would you know the difference!? I was one of those who didn't like school and even suspected in high school that it wasn't about "learning" and a few years later I happened to find a book at the library called, "11 Teenagers Who Don't Go To School" by Grace Llewelyn... and a decade after research and reading and self exploration later I'm STILL uncovering the layers of bullshoy placed on my psychi by a childhood spent in that place, so I can appreciate what this must sound like (so much white noise) to someone who never even suspected, much less knew that there was a growing sub-culture of "unschoolers" out there.
America is still relatively the land of the free. So more and more people are opting out of sending their kids to school. Being cynical, I was as shocked as anyone could be to find out how fast this population is growing and that it isn't stopping! Things will change and as always because of a grassroots movement, because of Liberty. That's why I excitedly pointed it out when Howard Zinn said that Lincoln didn't move to end slavery, a movement of people "moved" him to do it!
A handful of generations from now there will be this entire population that isn't psychicly wounded by schooling. It will be too late to legislate the movement to death (it's a thing of beauty that no one today can imagine schools ever being indispensable so a grassroots movement is no worry). The schooling paradigm with it's destructive assumptions will be on the way out. The tragicomedy of this is that by this time the third world countries will have finished building their schools. Doh!
Posted by: Vosh at April 20, 2004 02:50 AM
i just got through listening to last night's show (thanks airamericaplace.com) and i must say that for the first time, i'm disappointed in our hosts.
in my humble opinion, i think you are crazy to support the draft especially if one of your main justifications is to "wake up america" or "teach people a lesson". i'd like to think we are all smarter than that.
we keep harping on history, not repeating past mistakes... yet you have kos on and you all of a sudden advocate a draft? that's fucking insane, folks. all a draft would do it provide for more cannon fodder, or more warm bodies to turn into cold ones as someone wrote above.
what can we take from vietnam in this case? well, after the draft was turned up, lots more of our soldiers died in a war that was an unwinnable quagmire. the draft empowered the vietnam war planners to dump more men and resources at a fight we could not win. and if we've read our history then we know the result of that.
right now we are mired in a clusterfuck in iraq, and if we ratchet up our presense, i'm sure that we will lose thousands of soldiers. you think the death rate is horrific now? just wait until we start up the draft (which i think will happen regardless of who's appointed president), then you will be horrified.
i cannot in good conscience advocate a draft. the main reason i opposed the war was to save the lives of our men and women in uniform, and i will *not* support any measure that will increase their chances of coming home in a coffin. i wholeheartedly oppose the draft and will fight it with all that i've got when they try to do it next year. and we should all be opposing a draft - take what howard zinn said last week to heart, everyone. it's fucking insanity to throw more and more resources at a problem we cannot solve.
Posted by: anna at April 20, 2004 05:48 PM
I just listened to the rebroadcast of Monday night's program in the wee hours of Sunday night, and I am flabbergasted that Ms. Garafalo would support the draft. The draft wouldn't encourage political engagement. All it would do is provide cannon fodder.
The draft is enslavement. The draft is the government (read: BUSH AND CRONIES) invading your home and removing young men and women at gunpoint to bleed and die for their wealth and power. The draft is the most intimate and powerful form of tyranny. The draft is the government claiming *ownership* over your body and self.
Please, Ms. Garafalo, reconsider what you're advocating here. The draft is the very antithesis of all other political positions you've maintained over the years. To be for it is to invalidate everything else you've ever said about politics.
Posted by: David K. M. Klaus at April 26, 2004 03:30 AM
i dey here oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Posted by: at June 17, 2004 09:27 PM